It seems that NASA has been doing studies of the information gleaned from the various probes that have visited Jupiter and in the process of simulating the environment of Jupiter's moon Europa they have concluded that this is what it looks like on its night side.
The NASA/JPL article linked note that this phenomena has a lot of potential for analyzing the composition of Europa's ice and its subsurface ocean, via spectroscopy. However, there would seem to be other potential implications of this discovery.
Given that:
Currently, any life on Europa is assumed to be based on relatively inefficient chemosynthesis and to be dependent on discharges from equally hypothetical volcanic vents.
Cherenkov radiation is blue light, meaning it's pretty high energy visible light.
Water is an excellent ionizing radiation shield.
NASA says the sea ice is literally glowing blue, and seems to imply that this light is visible to the naked eye..
So, if the sea-ice over the ocean is, in fact, glowing in blue light, then this light could represent another potential source of energy beyond the hypothesized volcanic vents. As happens on Earth, this would only be complimented by any black smokers spewing nutrients.
Using the vast depth and breadth of biological and radiological knowledge that comes with a History degree, I find myself asking, "Can you grow plants with Cherenkov radiation?" It seems likely, given that blue light is pretty high in energy, and that they make blue grow lights.
The ice and water should protect against the hard radiation that ultimately causing the light, so in theory there might well be a very habitable region in Europa's ocean, one where actual photosynthesis, could potentially take place. Photosynthesis is vastly more efficient than the chemosynthesis that has been postulated as making life on Europa plausible, and (rather more so than chemosynthesis) might even support multicellular life.
Additionally, life or no life, Europa's oceans might be well lit...in an eerie blue glow (dependent, of course upon the thickness of the ice and brightness of the glow).
There are a whole bunch of variables that need to be looked at regarding this, and I'm sure SOMEBODY knows if Cherenkov radiation is devoid of anything that plants need, but I'll be damned if I can find any info in the matter at the moment.
Photosynthesis aside, there is a model put forth by a Richard Greenberg (presumably, his degrees are not in history) that Europa's ocean may be as oxygenated as earth's if not more so, due to the creation of Oxygen and Peroxides created by the radiation bombardment of the icy surface.
Europa's just looking better and better for life.
UPDATE:As you may note from the comments, this entry is from 2021, one of the last posts before my stroke. It was unlinkable and unsearchable due to a glitch involving an identical post title and I wanted to point it out to someone who had expressed an interest in it. Enjoy the blast from the past. Posting will resume soon, I promise.
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Cherenkov radiation, IIRC, should just be an EM wave. Under the usual model for EM waves, the frequency would be the main thing that matters.
That would depend on there being a biochemistry that can photosynthesize at one of the available frequencies. Which probably isn't something we can theoretically or numerically calculate any time soon.
Greenberg was a planetary science faculty, and most of his doctoral students were in planetary science. With one in applied mathematics. Looks like he retired in 2015 or so.
Posted by: PatBuckman at Sun Aug 1 11:15:11 2021 (DHVaH)
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Yeah, Given that Cherenkov Radiation is visible and blue I'd THINK it would just be blue light ie: fairly high energy visible EM radiation. It should be fine for plant growth, certainly if the plants evolved around it, but I'm not sure I'm not missing something in particular about it.
Posted by: The Brickmuppet at Sun Aug 1 11:27:26 2021 (5iiQK)
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Spectral content, and power.
Sun is on a bunch of frequencies. Power, by the time it hits Earth, isn't entirely negligible. So, any photosynthesis chemistry operating in that frequency range of high intensity, has enough power to support a biological process. In fact, trees etc., use several chemistries to exploit sunlight.
The basic question is how much power does the cherenkov radiation output, and whether it penetrates deep enough into Europa for our otherwise undetectable life.
Posted by: PatBuckman at Sun Aug 1 12:42:02 2021 (DHVaH)
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I think one of my favorite explanations for Cerenkov Radiation came in a reply to the original Can of Ravioli as a Relatavistic Weapon thread: "Cerenkov Radiation is the lightspeed police flashing their lights at you."
Posted by: Mauser at Wed Aug 4 00:54:28 2021 (Ix1l6)
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I'm actually closer to understanding how to study this problem than I was in 2021. Largely by accident. It 'should' be 'straightforward' to look at the scattering etc of the ice and water, except that ice has more than one phase, IIRC, and I think that the different phases would have different scattering properties.
Posted by: PatBuckman at Sun Nov 24 09:21:03 2024 (rcPLc)
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OT but I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving.
Posted by: Rick C at Sat Nov 30 10:55:50 2024 (NEIix)
I've been pretty exhausted the last few weeks, with medical issues, family emergencies and being run into the ground at work. it's been challenging just to keep to a schedule of anodyne rants and lamentations regards my poor video game skills as a cartoon muppet on the internet, let alone do research for thoughtful posts. I've also been quite blackpilled of late, what with assassination attempts, my own trepidation regards the less bad candidate, and what to me were grim portents with regard to polls and societal trnds.
Trump did partially allay my fears by reaching out to a diverse cross section of american right and left-wing polity, whose only common thread is that they are a bit crazy and have been rejected by the establishment, so I did not hold my nose this time when I voted for him against the horrid and strangely vapid politico he was running against. However, I had little hope that the cultural and media headwinds could be overcome.
OMG.
He won the popular vote. HE WON THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE! And did both so convincingly that it seems unlikely that any new surprise pallets of ballots can reverse this.
I'm keeping my head down as I'm surrounded by very angry people at work and in my neighborhood, but I am secretly quite pleased at the moment.
Time will tell if his dream team of eclectic intellectuals, visionary industrialists, and entertaining whackaloons can deal with the myriad issues the country faces, some, like the debt, seem unlikely to be solved by someone of Trumps predilections and temperament, and others, both economic and military are quite challenging to anyone, even someone with Trumps negotiating skills. But the one thing I am sure of is that Trump and his happy band of lunatics will TRY to make things better.
And that is a vast improvement over the current situation and a white-pill I did not expect.
UPDATE:
Bill Whittle implores us to take the high road and facilitate the nations healing. This is an excellent video, watch it in full.
It behooves us to remember that the other side is very much where we were 4 years ago when the rug was pulled out from us. They are more emotional, hence their histrionics rather than the quiet despair that set in for us, but the grief they feel is genuine. Most of their rank and file (as opposed to their leadership) really do believe their sides rhetoric and are genuinely confused and scared.
(of course SOME thoughtful snark is still allowed)
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Gloating is not necessary, because watching the best part of elections, i.e. the recriminations, start flying will fill the need very nicely.
Posted by: cxt217 at Wed Nov 6 19:05:39 2024 (ZLF73)
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First off, great to hear from you 'Muppet. I was beginning to wonder if everything was okay.
Okay, Nothing I'm about to say should be taken to mean I would support in any way inflicting the J6 and Trump show Trials or rampant abuse of Gov't power on the losing side. I oppose that.
With that said, I don't want to hear from people about "Take the High Road." We did that during the prior Trump years. We did that during the TEA Party years. We even did that during the W Years. It's never been paid in kind. It's always been taken by our adversaries as an opportunity to walk over us and use us like a cheep suit. In fact I would say that taking the High Road is part of what has lead us to our current pass as it emboldened our Adversaries to believe there would never be consequences, so they could do to us what they wanted. No More.
This go round, we need to break them. Break their hope. Break their will to fight. Break their their belief they are the future and leave them on the ash heap of history they sought to consign us to.
The opportunity to do this is there. With a clean sweep and a slim advantage in the Courts, plus the Dems facing an almost certain power vacuum at the top and a Game of Thrones to see who survives to lead them, plus Hollywood imploding in on itself as the cultural touchstone, there is opportunity to rebuild everything outside the grubby paws of everyone from the Obamas and Clintons through the McConnells and McCains and all the Power 'Elites' and Faceless Illuminati Bureaucrats. But we must be prepared to take it. Our Adversaries picked a knife fight in a swamp, we shy away from it not just at our own peril, but our descendants and successors peril. So no, do not take the High Road, but Rage Against the Night until that dieing light of Freedom burns bright again.
Posted by: stargazera5 at Thu Nov 7 17:54:01 2024 (KA0tm)
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Stargazer5, I do not want to become the monster, as that makes the whole exercise worse than pointless, but you are correct that mercy has not been reciprocated. For one thing, Hillary Clinton walks free today because Trump did NOT "lock her up".
However, I am from the southeast and know what happens when an effeminate thirst for vengeance takes over and stymies the need to build bridges and heal. Lincoln's admonition to go forward "with malice towards none, and charity to all" did not survive his assassination at the hands of a Democrat-sympathetic actor. Long after reconstruction, the south was not allowed to prosper for a century with knock on effects to the overall economic strength of the U.S. Additionally the misplaced resentment fueled the darkest angels of the losing sides nature, which with the death of the "40 acres and a mule" proposal to the Homestead Act, left the African American part of our population far less liberated than they should have been, even after the healing began in the 1950s and 60s.
There are parts of the right that have been truly tormented by their opponents and like all victims of trauma are inclined to react in unproductive ways. The sad fact is that those tormentors don't think that they've done anything wrong, indeed are convinced that they have been been kind. The cultural divide between the two is astonishing, approaching the historical examples of completely different cultures that have come to cross purposes. The two sides truly don't understand each others most basic motivations. To say this has the potential for much discord is quite the understatement.
SOME examples have to me made to be sure. The Lawfare in particular, as well as the collusion with foreign governments (the false accusations of which led to Trump's impeachment), but we must not be sadistic and have to be meticulously fair.
Posted by: The Brickmuppet at Thu Nov 7 19:14:21 2024 (3NtfN)
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I'm mixed on the high road/vengeance bit myself. I'm currently of the opinion that if our defeated enemies show any sign of reflection and acceptance, we can take the high road. If they dig in, keep trying to prevent Trump from actually doing anything as president, going after anyone remotely connected to him... well then, time to make the rubble bounce. And so far, that looks like it's the way we'll need to go.
I very nearly broke my self-imposed rule of "no politics in my Facebook posts, stay underground" when a friend posted something to the effect of "we lost, but we're going to accept it, and that's the difference between us and them." I so badly wanted to ask him if even knew about the inauguration riots in DC in 2016...
Posted by: David Eastman at Thu Nov 7 20:21:39 2024 (aAyxl)
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I'm not ready to say "water under the bridge" to the people who kept calling us Nazis and Fascists and everything else they could think of. And the last time we were conciliatory and "Shared power" with the dems because we were sorry we beat them, and put them on committees as chairs, they completely shut us out by way of thanks.
We know exactly how they would have acted had they won. there's a difference between being the Better Man and being a sucker.
Posted by: Mauser at Fri Nov 8 21:08:23 2024 (nk1Z+)
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The failure to follow up "Lock her up" with action and instead Take the High Road is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Instead of Taking the High Road, Trump should have opened up a Special Council to do a RICO investigation of the charges, Yes, spare Hilary if we ultimately must. But force her and Bill to sacrifice their middle management to protect themselves. Expose the corruption to the light and destroy Clinton, Inc. The Clintons were the most Machine Politicians of the last century, and if it was broken up in 2017/2018, then The Clinton Machine wouldn't have been available to play it's part in the... oddities of the 2020 election. Taking the High Road also carries a Price, and the 2020 election was a portion of that.
Posted by: stargazera5 at Fri Nov 8 21:50:56 2024 (xnpli)
